Graydon Stuckey's Comparison of UFO versus G60, October 1999
Bottom line results:
UFO Brakes: 164 feet
G60 Brakes: 138 feet
Boxster/A8 Brakes: 126 feet.
OK, now that this is out of the way, let's talk about how we got there. All tests were done in a 1991 200q 20v (125K miles), H&R springs with Bilstein shocks, 17x8.5" Borbet Type C wheels, 245/40-17 Dunlop 8000 tires, with a full tank of fuel and my passenger (180 pounds-ish) and me (195 pounds). Left the spare tire and tools in the car.
First off, I'll admit this is not a very good, nor fair, comparison. I removed a set of well used UFO brakes that were in need of replacement, and dropped in a nice used set of G60 brakes with good rotors and pads. So take the UFO vs. G60 results with a grain of salt.
However, the G60 vs. the Boxster/A8 is a pretty darn good comparison.
The single-piston UFO brakes were very tired; the rotors really couldn't be salvaged (even if I *did* decide to try Wolff's turning trick) and the pads were almost gone (still 1/2" of pad left though). When I finally decided to go to dual-piston G60 brakes and upgrade to something better based on that, I bought all the parts and had them at the ready. After reading all the emails 2 weeks ago regarding what was what on G60 vs. UFO, I decided to test it out. I bought a Tesla Engineering GTech Pro.
Just before bringing the car to the shop for the exchange, I loaded a buddy of mine in the car and we went testing. Here in CT it's damn hard to find an open road, let alone one where I could repeatedly brake to a dead stop, where I wouldn't bother anyone else or the local constabulary. I did find a side road, though the level of traffic precluded me from doing more than 6 stops without being noticed. Nonetheless, we were able to get consistent readings.
The first thing I found out was that my 200q with the Hoppen chip could out-G the GTech. If I made a hard 0-60 run, it would never accurately measure it, and when I stopped it thought I was still moving (but when I did get approximate 0-60 times, it ranged from 6.10 at the lowest to 7.2 at the highest.) Thus, the tests were done by a lazy acceleration run (about 10-14 seconds 0-60) then maximum effort braking, threshold braked as hard as I could and let the ABS take over after the car's nose settled.
With the UFO brakes, the car stopped in 164 feet. This was an average over 6 stops, with a range of 162-168 feet. Pedal pressure was fine, and feedback good. I could really tell the brakes were getting old, though, as it just didn't feel like it had the "grip" of the pads I was looking for. I couldn't kick in the ABS above 30-40 mph.
So, off it goes to the repair shop. One week later, I had retrieved it with the G60 brakes. First impressions were that the pedal travel was longer, but once the pads bit the brake performance was pretty good, at least on par with the UFO brakes.
I grabbed my buddy to do a braking re-test. We filled the car up again and went back to the same piece of road. Weather was almost identically to before, a high overcast and temperatures in the 50's.
Through 6 stops the car averaged 138 feet stopping distance, with a range of 134-140 feet. The pedal travel was longer, but once the pads bit it hauled the car down MUCH faster. I could easily engage the ABS immediately upon hard braking. The difference was startling. Though I found the pedal pressure a bit higher than for the UFO brakes (I felt I had to push a bit harder) it was quite acceptable. My wife commented the same the next day (I had not told her what I had done; she was unaware of the brake change).
Of course, wanting more, I installed our Boxster/A8 combination. We went Gtech testing, and with the same conditions, same road, same everything, we got an average of 126 feet stopping distance, ranging from 125-128 feet over 6 stops. And they felt really nice.
You can never have "too much..."
When I shared the results with a friend of mine, he sent the following response:
Your 125 foot 60-0; that’s without full ABS? The 8/93 comparison test of the ‘93 S4 (stock) by motor trend lists a 60-0 distance of 115 feet. ‘92 V8q listed as 124 feet...’93 911 turbo 3.6 as 120 feet; ‘94 911 speedster as 111 feet; ‘93 MB 500E as 116 feet.
That was definitely WITH ABS, a good stomp on the brakes, and let the system do all the dirty work. Consider that I don’t do this for a living, and I don’t have nice pavement prepped for the task. I did it on a busy New England public street while trying to not piss off surrounding motorists...<grin>. Plus, I used a GTech; those guys use very accurate third wheel measuring devices.
I find the comparison between the various braking systems the important part, plus I *know* these things stop much better than before...
Graydon Stuckey's Comparison of UFO versus G60, October 1999
On Thu, 8 Apr 1999, Greg Amy wrote:
> Oh, yeah, I'm stirring up the pot a little bit. I've got direct performance numbers on UFOs s G60 brakes.
Time for some more stirring... :-)
> G60 vs. UFO, I decided to test it out. I bought a Tesla Engineering GTech Pro
Ditto.
My car is a '91 V8 5-speed, BBS RC 17x8 w/ Nitto NT555 235/45-17, Bilstein Sports, stock springs, half tank of fuel, me and my three sons (5, 3 and 1.5 years) in the car (probably 4100-4200 pounds overall)
My car with older UFOs and Jurid brake pads stopped from 60 mph in 129 feet. I only got one stop in, so its not a reliable number statistically, however, I've found that the G-tech is relatively reliable and consistent on previous tests on other cars. I also noticed that in that one stop, the ABS lost its cool, and got confused. I am sure that I'll do better with the ABS off, or with better modulation of the pedal even with the ABS on. I'll try to get a few runs in over the next few days and report back.
My sons thought I was nuts! :-)
For reference, I think the new Impala stops in less than 120 feet, although I wouldn't want to do that all day long on a track. I should bring my Gtech out to the Proving grounds and try it I suppose.
Greg's Response:
> My car with older UFOs and Jurid brake pads stopped from 60 mph in 129 feet.
EXCELLENT information. As I had said back then (has it really been 6 months now?) that I had tested *really* worn-out UFO brakes; I wasn't going to buy a new set of UFO brakes, right before chucking them (actually, I gave the old ones to ChrisM). My comparison of the UFO brakes to the G60s was not really fair, as the G60s only had less than 5K miles on them and were in reasonable condition.
If we were presume that I would have gotten similar results as you did using good UFO components (and I believe I would have), then this supports a couple of theories I've had:
This was the whole focus of my investigations when I was looking to change the brakes on my 1991 200q. I blanched at the thought of spending upwards of $700 for stock replacement parts for the UFOs, and I simply rejected the notion of spending upwards of $3000 for one of the "Big Red" brake upgrades, especially those that didn't fit under factory 16" wheels. Ironically, I thought nothing of spending $1000 to go the BIRA Porsche aluminum monobloc brakes, especially since they had "Porsche" emblazoned on the side! <grin>.
Note, of course, that I already owned the conversion parts to go to the S6 struts and brakes. If I had had to buy these parts, it would have cost about $1500 more (I think that's the going price for UFO-to-G60 conversion using salvaged S-car parts.) This $1500 cost would also have had to be added to the $3000 for the "Big Reds" conversion plus another who-knows-how-much for appropriate wheels and tires to fit over them.
If I had kept the UFO brakes but harbored any thoughts of further brake improvements, I would have been limited to brake pad material only. Cost of replacement parts are also an issue: $300 rotors and $100 pads for the least expensive pads. With the BIRA system my future rotors are $110 each ($175 each for slotted) and the pad material options are virtually endless (and cost $85-180 a set). This was a big factor, especially if I had planned to run track events and use up brake parts (and I did, and I did.)
Bottom line as I see it: good-condition UFO brakes are good-performance brakes, and if the car is used for the street I really don't see a need to change them. Keep them in excellent condition and you'll see a long, happy service life with them.. The downside is the replacement parts' cost and availability, plus they're relatively heavy unsprung weight as well (which doesn't realistically mean diddly to the street driver).
The BIRA brake kits are excellent upgrades for the S-car (or converted UFO) owner that's looking for a cost-effective ($1000) bolt-on conversion to high-performance brakes while keeping their stock 16" S-Car wheels, a setup which is quite capable of high-performance street and track use. They're certainly no "Big Bertha" conversions, but everyone that has run BIRA brakes on the track and on the street has been ecstatic with their performance and their value (we have new email testimonials from Watkins Glen, but I'm waiting on approvals from the authors to use them on our web site.)
By the way, BIRA has lined up key retailers for our braking systems who will offer complete ready-to-bolt-on kits for a little more money; the details should be available by the end of the calendar year. In addition, we have designs ready-to-go that fit the A4, A6, 5000, 200, 100, and VW Passat; we are only waiting on demand before putting them in full production (we've completed all initial prototyping). We are looking for local new-S4 and A8 owners that wish to help us on designs for those cars as well.
We will still continue to offer BIRA memberships to those that wish to obtain only the brackets and source out their own OEM parts. Details, news, and contact information on the web site.
Thanks for the info, Graydon!
Greg Amy